0:00:01 - (Matt Widdoes): Welcome to another episode of growth at Scale. I'm your host, Matt Widdoes. And today we're joined by Kristin Perry. Kristen is one of my favorite, if not my absolute favorite, salespeople of all time. She pivoted out of technology and into the Bay Area real estate market, helping individuals find and sell the perfect home with Coldwell Banker a couple of years ago, and before her pivot to real estate, she worked in business expansion at mobile gaming and tech firms.
0:00:24 - (Matt Widdoes): Past experience includes time leading sales at Tapjoye, director of strategic partnerships at Tilting Point US sales director at Luna Labs and head of sales and business development at Lifestreet, an industry leading programmatic marketing platform for app developers. Kristen, welcome.
0:00:40 - (Kristen Perry): Thank you, Matt.
0:00:42 - (Matt Widdoes): I know. I'm excited to have you. It's been a long time. So there was a lot in that intro. We have a lot to dive into today, and I'm really excited to kind of unpack lessons from sales as it relates to growth. And youre relatively recent pivot, although not that recent in the grand scheme of things, but for people who don't know you as well as I do, tell us, who, who are you? What do you do? Where have you been?
0:01:03 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah, well, as you said, I'm Kristin Perry. Had a great decade plus long run in the ad tech industry, Bay area native. And then, yeah, a couple years ago, decided to make a complete 180 of a career into real estate, which is what I do with my family here in Marin county now.
0:01:23 - (Matt Widdoes): Great. Well, and for anybody who hasn't been to Marin, it's a lovely place, and if you need a home.
0:01:31 - (Kristen Perry): Allow me to show you around.
0:01:33 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah. Yeah. But, no, it is a magical place, for sure. So let's talk a little bit about just to kind of break in your experience in tech and kind of what led you to leave. I think a lot of people in Silicon Valley, they at some point think, well, what if I didn't live here? What would I do if I wasn't surrounded by all of the opportunity and chaos, the good and bad of Silicon Valley? What if I switched careers? What if I moved entirely?
0:02:04 - (Matt Widdoes): What kind of went through your head and what ultimately led you to decide to pivot and start a new life in Marin?
0:02:13 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah, I mean, I grew up in the Bay Area, so leaving the Bay Area was never actually something I wanted to do or plan to do. But when I look back at kind of my career in ad tech, I realized that, like, I didn't make a lot of the decisions that led me to where I was. So you grow up in the Bay Area, you kind of have this fomo of like, okay, well, of course I have to join an ad tech startup because that's what you do here.
0:02:41 - (Kristen Perry): So I did that. Went through an acquisition that sort of got me into ad tech, and then the career sort of ran itself. I don't think that I, like, made decisions that got me to the next role. The decisions kind of presented themselves, and so we can talk about COVID and where I started to realize that maybe I wasn't really owning my choices, but I loved working in ad tech. Like, it fit my life so well in my twenties, but I changed and the industry changed, and it's really hard to walk away from a career that you feel like, oh, my gosh, I've already built so much.
0:03:26 - (Kristen Perry): I can't possibly walk away at this point. Then I had to remind myself, like, I still have 30 years plus of work left. I should probably make sure it's something I'm really, really driven to do.
0:03:38 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah, well, the great point, and I think that, you know, many people don't end up taking the plunge into either hard pivots or. Or especially kind of deeply entrepreneurial things because there's so much unknown and risk, and you kind of have to just jump off the platform at some point and be like, okay, this is what I'm doing for real. And I've let it all go, and my inbox is at zero. I'm curious. Like you mentioned, you had seen, as. I have seen as well, the industry change on the technology side in a number of different areas in advertising, any kind of high level things that you would flag as maybe not the death kneel, but things that you were seeing and observing where you're like, okay, this is kind of different. This is not what I originally was doing. This is less fun than what I originally signed up for, and therefore, it's much easier to walk away from this new world.
0:04:29 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah. And I think less fun is maybe a great way to put it. But for me, I am a people oriented person. I thrive in environments where I get to go into work every day and have friendships with my coworkers and get to interact with other teams. And I was definitely that employee that, like, walked up to legal and asked questions or data science, and I can't do that in a virtual world, but I got a lot of job satisfaction from kind of that holistic interaction that I had with the companies that I worked at. And so the roles that I started taking throughout Covid, there was none of that. It was all remote. It was all, well, this is your job.
0:05:13 - (Kristen Perry): And so a lot of the joy that I had from those really human experiences were removed. And there is a lot of reason why a remote work environment works for people. I don't understand how people had families and didn't have remote work before COVID But for me, I just saw the industry moving toward a remote work environment, and I knew that it just wasn't going to be something I could be successful in.
0:05:39 - (Matt Widdoes): Well, I think with COVID too, it was very interesting for me to see, having sat on the receiving end of a lot of sales pitches to see, and from software companies and technology to ad sales, you name it, where there seemed to always be on that side, a lot of face to face work, right? A lot of, okay, we're going to be in town. We'd love to meet up. We have a coffee, we do a dinner, we do whatever. We're at an event. We're just constantly on the road.
0:06:11 - (Matt Widdoes): When you see sellers. And then with COVID hit, it was like, okay, well, nobody can be on the road. And so in that way, it was kind of equal footing. However, you saw these, like, travel and entertainment budgets just go to nothing. And probably, I would assume some finance teams and executive teams saying, well, do we need all that money in t and E? And like, we can all just, you can just sell on a Vidcon, right? And it like, reset the expectation.
0:06:40 - (Matt Widdoes): Now we're seeing, I think, teams come out of that, and I do get the sense that teams that are still holding on to that, I guess, like cost savings of limiting FaceTime, not limiting FaceTime, but limiting travel and trying to do most of their work via Vidcon or ad. I think a fairly sizable disadvantage to teams that are going out and back out kind of on the street. And I think that we saw that as things did start to open up, the teams that were like, okay, we're going back on the road, kind of thing. And I hadn't thought about the element of that inner office, especially for a seller to be meeting with the data team, especially at a technical product, right, where you need to meet with legal, you need to meet with these other ancillary parts of the business to answer questions that maybe you're getting in the field or to put things in that, you know, the market is asking for or desiring and how quickly that evaporates and changes when it's. When it can't be just a quick water cooler kind of casual conversation and you're not able to build the, like, bridges by which you can influence those other departments to be like, come on, we can put this in. Like, what do you guys, what are you guys working on? Like, let's, let's talk about it. Why don't I take you out to lunch? Right? We'll just kind of like, brain trust something through to just being like, I'm really busy. What is this about? Can you send me an email? And you're like, getting that from everywhere. And how few sellers can be successful in that model, but that many are, I think, probably the worst companies. Not saying any companies you worked at would necessarily fit that.
0:08:10 - (Matt Widdoes): They just by default are like, go back and sell. And it's like, that's such a short sighted transactional view of what ultimately is a key pillar of growth. So sounds like some of that resonates.
0:08:21 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah. And I mean, transactional is a great word. It felt, it went from being fulfilling and relationship driven and strategic. Like, hey, we both want you to get to this goal. I'm going to really understand the product that I have to offer you so that I can make sure I find the right fit for you to incredibly transactional. And so, yeah, my love fell apart pretty quickly during COVID well, and somebody.
0:08:46 - (Matt Widdoes): Like you and maybe what makes you great, one of many things that probably makes you great at sales is you're thinking with a, not to be like, too on brand here, but you're thinking with a growth mindset where you're like, okay, like, I want to sell. I want to hit my number, but what are we going to do? Like, I need other help. I'm not, you're never putting blame there, but you're just saying, let's go, let's like, double the number. Like, what else could we do, right? And having that ability to serve as a strategic influence and partner versus just go hit your number, which is like, not how I think you've ever thought about it. Obviously, you've been, you focused and hit those things, but it's still, it's, it's a team sport in, in many ways versus like, go out and win the game.
0:09:31 - (Matt Widdoes): KP, let's go. What are you doing? Where are all the points? And you're like, nobody's on the field with me. So it sounds like that probably lined up. I'm curious on that point of what makes a great seller. Like, what do you think makes a great seller. What do you think gave you an advantage in how you approach sales? Walk us through that. For somebody who's maybe doesn't have, who's listening, maybe early stage founder doesn't have their first seller or they're selling themselves right now. It's founder driven.
0:10:02 - (Matt Widdoes): What advice or kind of key points do you think really is part of the ingredient list of a killer salesperson?
0:10:07 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah, I mean, I think communication is a massive point of any sort of successful sales cycle. It's really listening to your clients and understanding what they need and then hearing that and figuring out a, what are the solutions that I can offer them? Not I have a product. Here is my pitch. Do you want it? So really, and I think a lot of those conversations, it's funny, they don't come in like the pitch calls that you have. They don't come in the weekly meetings where you're checking in on KPI's. They come at the dinners, they come at the social interaction when you're like, what are your pain points?
0:10:49 - (Kristen Perry): Let's talk about your kids, but also let's talk about work. But the more we know each other, the more we're comfortable with each other, the less it feels like selling and the more it feels like working together towards your goals. You want your company to grow as, let's say, an app developer. I want to spend your money well so that you continue to spend with me, but also I want you to be successful.
0:11:15 - (Kristen Perry): And so I think also just focusing on how to make your clients successful and not just how to make yourself.
0:11:21 - (Matt Widdoes): Successful well, and I think, you know, there's a few points I want to unpack there. One is you're saying, you know, a lot of these come at these dinners, but it's through really getting to know each other as individuals, building that rapport naturally. Not because you're after some, you're trying to slam them into something they don't need, but to kind of get the trust that, hey, like, of all the people that are trying to sell you stuff right now, I'm thinking about our relationship long term. I'm thinking about what's right for your business.
0:11:47 - (Matt Widdoes): You can trust me to tell you when I don't have anything for you, and you can trust me when I tell you I really think that this might work. Let me give you the information I have that supports that. You can make the business decision, we can make the business decision together on how we want to approach that, but it's troubleshooting with them and not some textbook, you know, 1960s textbook on, you know, when your client crosses their legs, cross your legs, this will, this will subconsciously make them like you. And then when they like you, you can go in for the kill yeah, like, no, we're not doing that.
0:12:20 - (Matt Widdoes): Because that, again, is a transactional, focused, and manipulated construct of a relationship versus a true relationship. So that's one. The other thing is, you said, one of the first things you said in that, in that reply was communication, which I think many people, myself included, when they hear the word communication, they think of a outbound communication. Right. So it's talking to, and you said very quickly listening. Right. And I think it's easy to forget that a huge part of communication, because you can't have one without the other, is listening and that focus. And I think the best sellers really put a lot of intention into listening and less about pitching. And I think that's something that probably everybody works on to get better at the listening portion of it, because you know what you have and you're really excited as a seller and you want to get that message out, maybe you have some limited time, but really, I think pulling back and asking yourself, like, before pitching is like, well, I need to know what it is you have and what you're trying to accomplish, because I don't even know if what I have is for you. And so, you know, I could spend 40 minutes talking about ten different things that I can offer. But, like, starting with what are you actually trying to do? And listening and getting that those deeper dive questions again, to truly understand kind of what their desires and outcomes and needs are versus going in and saying, all right, I know what this is.
0:13:39 - (Matt Widdoes): You are just like every other ex company that we work with. Here are all the logos of the X companies that we work with that are just like you, and we help them do bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And they're just waiting to be heard on what they're actually doing. And nobody wants a cookie cutter solution.
0:13:55 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah. And if you give them a chance to speak, they'll tell you what they need.
0:13:59 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah. Yeah. I think that's often overlooked even by really tenured salespeople. Right. Even successful salespeople in some ways. But it's like, there. But you were delaying an agreement by just soapboxing on all of the features and then, like, let me open up a demo, and it's like, don't do. Why are we demoing when we don't even know if they need this thing, right? And what whistles are we going to show them in the demo? Like, we have a thousand things, like, and the whole time the person's just like, can this please be over? Which I think is why a lot of salespeople get kind of a bad rep. Yeah.
0:14:32 - (Kristen Perry): And I would say, you know, real estate, it's probably more true in real estate than tech, but when you have the sale. Shut up. Like, stop.
0:14:39 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah. Don't oversell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a classic. A classic. No more. And it also comes with this. So let's talk about real estate. So, you know, you could have chosen any number of things to get into, and you chose real estate. And I know from our previous conversations that your dad ran and maybe still runs something in home building and stuff like that. Is that right? Do I remember?
0:15:07 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah, yeah. General contractor. Owned his own general contracting business.
0:15:11 - (Matt Widdoes): There we go. Okay. There we go. That's. Thanks for the. I was given some curse of memory where there are certain things I don't forget, and I can't remember. It was jer and bear.
0:15:23 - (Kristen Perry): Mary and Jerry.
0:15:24 - (Matt Widdoes): Mary Perry. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I got the jer, right?
0:15:29 - (Kristen Perry): Yes.
0:15:29 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah. Mary and Jerry Perry. It's okay.
0:15:31 - (Kristen Perry): And he's retired at this point, but, yeah.
0:15:35 - (Matt Widdoes): You know, you grew up around home building. You grew up, like, that was a part of the culture around the house.
0:15:40 - (Kristen Perry): Right.
0:15:40 - (Matt Widdoes): Homes were being built. Yeah. And sold.
0:15:42 - (Kristen Perry): Yep. And you were doing work with your hands. You were, you know, doing something that you could see and was tangible. And I think I didn't realize how much I. I didn't have that in tech until I did make the switch.
0:15:57 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah. It's also very tangible in that way, particularly home building, which is like, that didn't exist. That was a hill with a bunch of trees on it, and now it's this. So you can be like, that got done. It's not exactly farm work, but there's some element of that with working with your hands, where you're like, I did that. That's. That versus. What does that next incremental sale mean? And in real estate, I'm sure there's many parallels there as well, outside of remodel or new construction, where it's like, okay, this, like, family has this amazing place. They found their perfect home, and, like, how fulfilling that is from a relationship standpoint.
0:16:31 - (Matt Widdoes): And, yes, you won't see them again, probably for 15 or 20 years, but it's like, okay, great. And I think real estate is one of these things where there are. I haven't thought about it this way, but in some ways, it's kind of like, at least how I think about chiropractors. Not to. Not to dump on chiropractors, but it's like, 95% of them are not good. And then there's, like, 15% that are criminal, but there's like 5% that are amazing.
0:16:59 - (Matt Widdoes): And so I think everybody, when buying or selling a home, is looking for that. Nobody wants that, anything outside of that 5%. And so there's probably a lot to kind of unpack here. And you started, is it two years ago?
0:17:12 - (Kristen Perry): Yep.
0:17:12 - (Matt Widdoes): Yep. So go ahead.
0:17:15 - (Kristen Perry): No, I was going to say I got my license during COVID because there's only so much sourdough bread you can make. And so I had an interest. It was a hobby of mine. I would say the only tv I watched was like, HGTV.
0:17:30 - (Matt Widdoes): Sure.
0:17:31 - (Kristen Perry): I never got my license expecting that this would be my future career.
0:17:35 - (Matt Widdoes): What made you get your license then? Like, what was it was just out of interest, like, okay, let me put a toe in the water. Yeah.
0:17:40 - (Kristen Perry): Had time. And I knew it was easy to get your license, which, you know, I think we should definitely make it more difficult and that would kind of help with the, you know, 95% of that we talked about. But it was just interesting to me and I think that was important. Right. It was a topic, it was something that I liked where I enjoyed mobile gaming. I enjoyed the people, mostly the people that I got to work with.
0:18:10 - (Kristen Perry): But did I like, have a passion for gaming? Probably nothing.
0:18:16 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah. You can find, you can find a passion in anything, right. But that, it's not innate. You didn't go home and watch deconstructs on the latest mobile video games from deconstructor fun or something. You weren't just immersed in it essentially.
0:18:30 - (Kristen Perry): And you did, you should get a job in mobile gaming.
0:18:33 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's a great point. So you kind of do the test, you're like, okay, and now your interest is peaked. You may start thinking about kind of where you might sit within that, any number of things that sit within real estate, right. Because you could, you could do, you wouldn't need a license for this, but you could be in staging, you could be a broker, you could do, you could do mortgages. Like, there's lots of supporting businesses around real estate. Obviously you have a great depth in sales and you were leaving an industry where you were hyper connected, well liked, I well respected, trusted, and you could just move, you could switch to a new company.
0:19:16 - (Matt Widdoes): And I mean, you and I probably did this two or three times when you went from the time we met when you were at tapjoy to the time when you left where it's like, hey, I'm moving over here. This is what they do. Let's have a coffee and talk about it. You could just instantly have prospects in front of you that you were already well past the rapport side. You could get feedback before taking a job and say, hey, what do you think about these guys? Which I think we also did a few times, and, like, you had just this network of support and kind of plug and play sellability, and you could pre read that before even taking a job to say, hey, if I work here, are you working with them? Would you work with them? Do you know about this? What do you like about it?
0:19:52 - (Matt Widdoes): And you could kind of determine how hard that was going to be even before saying yes to an offer. Now you're in a new industry, it's probably not dissimilar to whenever you started your career and you didn't have a network. Right. Because nobody really walks into a career with a network, especially in gaming ad tech. How did you go about that reset? And you're probably still going about it, but, like, what were some of the things that you had expected that were unexpected? How did you go about building that, like, momentum?
0:20:20 - (Matt Widdoes): I'm just so curious about that because you're starting from literally nothing, essentially, despite having all of this amazing stuff on the other side. But there's only so many people in that group that want to buy a home in Marin county. So what'd you do?
0:20:33 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah, and I think it was easy, right? It was an easy decision, and that's how I knew it was the right one. So when I was after my last job in ad tech, I was searching for a job, and it was just so uninspiring. I was not interested in anything. It was like, it was cringy to read about the role I could take.
0:20:57 - (Matt Widdoes): Which, by the way, must be a very dark place if I was in that spot. It's like, what am I? This is a trap. What am I doing? Why am I. I'm in this weird, I hedonic treadmill of moving to the next thing and, like, what is the end there? Okay, so that probably was a, like, didn't feel good. Pivotal, pivotal wake up call of what the hell am I doing? Yeah, probably has some grieving period as well, which is like, am I really gonna walk away? And all the risks that you're facing, right? Yeah.
0:21:27 - (Kristen Perry): And a couple things there. I think. I think, you know, I looked at the, I started looking at, like, the benefits that these companies could offer me instead of the job. And, like, when I started realizing that's what I was focusing on, I was like, okay, this is. And the irony is now I work as a 1099 employee with no benefits.
0:21:46 - (Matt Widdoes): No traditional benefits, but they're not.
0:21:49 - (Kristen Perry): There's a lot of healthcare. But there was this moment where I was just like, I could stop this today. Like, I could stop searching for a job right now and instead spend all of this energy into just, like, going and doing this real estate thing, and. And that felt so exciting. That was, like, invigorating. And I was like, I'm gonna do it. And everyone around me is like, you're nuts.
0:22:17 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wasn't. I think when we met about this, I was like, you'll crush it. Like, you will find a way. So I'm like, yeah, I would support you going into anything, to be honest. Yeah.
0:22:26 - (Kristen Perry): I mean, so it was an easy choice, but I had to probably take two more jobs than I really should have an ad tech before I was ready.
0:22:36 - (Matt Widdoes): I see. Okay. Got it. So it was a slow burn.
0:22:38 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah.
0:22:39 - (Matt Widdoes): Okay, so you had already kind of identified this, even pre Covid?
0:22:42 - (Kristen Perry): No, because I think it was during COVID Right.
0:22:44 - (Matt Widdoes): It was kind of during COVID So you kind of wrote that out.
0:22:47 - (Kristen Perry): Was starting to wane.
0:22:48 - (Matt Widdoes): That makes sense. Okay. Yeah. And timelines make sense there.
0:22:50 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah.
0:22:51 - (Matt Widdoes): Cool. So then. Okay, so then you. So it's day one. You have zero inbox. You've. You're like, I did it. There's. It's quiet. Very quiet. Right, I would assume. Right. You have, like, it's first Monday. What am I doing? What did you do? Like, what did. What did that first six months look like? How did you approach that?
0:23:11 - (Kristen Perry): I mean, it's incredibly humbling, but it's also, you know, one of the first things I did is I sought out a mentor. There are. Real estate has been around for a really long time, and there's an incredibly long sales cycle. So I could have spent all those early days doing what I thought was gonna grow my business, but it was really became really apparent to me that I needed to find somebody or multiple people that could give me better insight into what I should be doing with that time. And it wasn't what I expected. It wasn't like, oh, get on the phone and call expired listings like, it was, focus on your network.
0:23:50 - (Kristen Perry): Focus on the people around you. And I think that's been one of the most rewarding parts about it that I didn't really anticipate is when I think about my life in ad tech, I feel like my career was taking me away from my friends, my family, my community. I was constantly traveling, which, again, in my twenties, was perfect. But as my life got more fulfilling. I needed my career to also be more fulfilling, to be something I wanted to do.
0:24:20 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah.
0:24:21 - (Kristen Perry): And so in real estate, literally, what I've been told time and time again is focus on your people. Focus on being a good friend. Focus on being a part. Part of your community in an authentic way. Like, show up as your true self. Like, I'm not gonna go start going to church because that wouldn't be me. But I'm finding other ways to, you know, grow and support my community. And that, in turn, is how you grow your business.
0:24:48 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah. So it's getting out. It's not getting out from behind the computer, which is. Which is probably music to your ears. Right. Given your previous points. So, okay, so you do that. But did you have mentors existing? It sounds like you went out looking for one. Did you? You cold called people and said, hey, I'm new. This is what I want to do. I've got this background in technology. I'm not, like, fresh off the turnip truck here. But how did you go about that? Is that what you did?
0:25:14 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah. I mean, you have to join a brokerage, and so there's other agents that you know, and you can see how successful business is. And one of the surprising things is that a lot of agents that are successful are very open to helping. Like, your relationship with other agents is so huge, and so people want.
0:25:31 - (Matt Widdoes): You're gonna be working with them.
0:25:32 - (Kristen Perry): Totally.
0:25:32 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah. It's kind of like. It's like, I would imagine on some level, though, I don't know enough about this area, but it's like lawyers and, like Das, where they're like, you need to kind of be. If you're a defense attorney, you need to kind of have an okay relationship with the DA, even though they're on the other side of the table, because, like, that's where stuff gets done and people are able to deal, make better because there is a layer of trust there. But it's interesting to hear, because I would think.
0:25:56 - (Matt Widdoes): My instinct would think that some of the more successful ones. Well, the more successful ones have more to lose, but they're not threatened by somebody who's new. Right. I would doubt that the most successful real estate agents would be so open with one of the other top two or three because there's maybe too much competition there. But it sounds like from your reaction, that's not necessarily true. It's kind of like we're all. There's plenty of business to go around. Sometimes I win, you win, whatever. But it's not as directly competitive. Is that right. Yeah.
0:26:24 - (Kristen Perry): I actually have found that to be true, where the best agents are actually have great relationships with other great agents, because, honestly, they're doing a lot of transactions together. And so, you know, kind of going back to the strategic partnership hat everyone's trying to move toward the same goal. I want the same goal that the agent on the other side, they want to sell the house. My clients sell the house. Exactly. And so.
0:26:50 - (Kristen Perry): And so we're helping to navigate the process together and overcome any hurdles that may get in the way. And I think if you come at it with an adversarial perspective, then you're not going to do yourself any favors. And so finding mentors was easy ish. And then I ended up joining a team, which far and away has exceeded my expectations, working with one of the top agents here in Marin. Just, it is such a faster way to learn, but it's also way less lonely.
0:27:24 - (Kristen Perry): So, again, going back to, like, I suddenly, like, have a team again, and we're hosting events, and, yeah, we're learning brainstorming.
0:27:34 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah, yeah.
0:27:35 - (Kristen Perry): And collective knowledge and, yeah, well, and.
0:27:38 - (Matt Widdoes): I would imagine the also on the transaction side, when you talk about, you know, big agents working with other agents, sometimes you're representing the buyer, sometimes representing the seller is that there is some level of compartmentalization or detachment because you're like, okay, like, yeah, here's what's going on with this house. And the house is just this object that is not directly emotional to either of the agents.
0:28:03 - (Matt Widdoes): Right. It may be to the seller. It may be in some way to the buyer. But if you're like, okay, yeah, well, I don't have a. I have a buyer for this weird house that nobody else wants because they love these features that nobody else cares about. Like, they don't mind that it's super choppy because they like that it has an Ada bathroom. So I've got a great buyer for this. Okay, great. And it's like, great. We transacted really well on that, and I think the devil's in the details there. To your point earlier about what makes a great seller of the listening and the kind of relationship driven stuff is it's in the trenches on the transaction. Once we found a potential match, I'm assuming where you're like, okay, like, you were easy to work with, you were reasonable.
0:28:43 - (Matt Widdoes): I told you you could trust me, that, like, your bid needed to be higher to be competitive here, and you could still honor your fiduciary duties to your clients. But, like, try to get this bridge done. It's almost maybe in some ways I'm making up a story here, but it's maybe almost like, it's probably very different, but like a divorce lawyer where they're like, look, we just won a transaction. Yeah, they both won out. Or in your case, they both won in. Yeah, well, I guess one wants in, one wants out of. But it's like, what do we have to do to get these two other people that we will not have to transact with again to come to the table here? Because you and I are going to transact a lot.
0:29:18 - (Matt Widdoes): And it comes into that kind of playing long term games with long term people. And it gives you an advantage where you've spent a career building true relationships on trust so that you can, like, quickly transact in the future. It sounds like that, all parallel. So that kind of, I'm guessing that that bone for you, that. Not that bone, but the muscle for you, that comes second nature. That's like, by your. That is by your nature.
0:29:41 - (Matt Widdoes): And so whereas others may be new to the industry, super protective, knocking on doors, not the best way to probably build a relationship. It is one way, but, like, hello, what are you doing? It's like, are you selling candy for a basketball team or are you trying to buy my house? Like, what is going on? So anyways, I would imagine, but that has a long tail. Going to community events. What does that mean? So we show up and we're like, hey. And we're talking casually and networking and saying, oh, I sell homes. What do you do? But, like, that is, like, not directly measurable.
0:30:12 - (Matt Widdoes): That is like, this squishy. How many events did you go to this week? How do you think about that? Like, and where is, is there measurability in this business for you at this stage? Like, where you can kind of predict what is or isn't working?
0:30:24 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah. Measurability is hard. Coming from the background that I did, it's incredibly important to me, both in terms of dollars, but also time. Because, you know, when you're starting a business, you look at, okay, what do I have in abundance and what is scarce? And how do I protect what's scarce? Well, when you're starting in real estate, you have an abundance of time. You don't have an abundance of income to spend on ads, let's say, or really fancy advertisements, pamphlets, billboards.
0:30:56 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah. And so I think what I spent the beginning again, finding a mentor who can tell you this is where you should be spending your time because it's an incredibly long sales cycle. I am planting seeds now in hopes that they're gonna bloom. And you have to trust that you're planting the right seeds, and you have no idea when spring is, so you have to have a lot of faith that what you're doing. But I have been pretty meticulous with trying to track. Okay, where are you, the clients, the buyers, and the sellers that I've been helping, where am I meeting them? Where are they stemming from?
0:31:34 - (Kristen Perry): And I think what's been important to understand, like, for me, it's been open houses. I do really well at open houses, meeting people. I'm basically meeting my client, like, meeting my target audience where they are, which is important. I'm not trying to find them when they're playing mobile games. I'm not trying to find them at birthday parties, trying to meet them. And those are the ones that have quickly become my clients the fastest.
0:32:00 - (Kristen Perry): Now, focusing on your community and your network and your friends, it's just. It just makes you a better person. And, like, ultimately, when you're going through a process of buying a home, you want to work with somebody I think that you believe is, like, a good person. And I. And I feel like I'm getting a little sideways on this answer, but I.
0:32:22 - (Matt Widdoes): Think that the rapport and all that stuff matters. And it's. Yeah, there's no. It's a tough question because it's basically like, how do you build relationships from the ground up? You could, regardless of real estate or anything else. Like, let's say I dropped you off in Hawaii and you're just going to live there. You have no job. You don't need a job. You just dropped you off in Hawaii. Well, if I dropped you off in Hawaii with, like, 100 million, you'd have no problem meeting people, I'm sure. But unlimited resources, which is when you're starting a new business, how do you build community?
0:32:57 - (Matt Widdoes): Is a very tough question. It's something that many of our listeners at their companies are struggling with. But, like, this is so personal, and there isn't, in some ways, like, there isn't anything to sell off the jump. There is no pitch on, boy, do I have a presentation for you on why you should be buying or selling your home right now, like, in the next three months. And so you kind of have to meet people where they're, like, there's a subset. You have to, like, meet hundreds of people, thousands of people, to find anybody who's even in the. In the realm. So it's not. It's not an easy question to answer, and it sounds like you know, it's, it's getting out and having conversations which also a lot of people are not comfortable with, even in sales roles. Right.
0:33:43 - (Matt Widdoes): And that they're not directly comfortable with it. When you go to an open house, are you ever going there with no buyer? And you're just kind of looking for people that are, like, walking. Like you're checking out the house either way, because you want to understand, like, what is it? And know that it's available. Because there's like, two parts of your business you need to, like, understand the inventory, because that's, that's your product, and it changes every day.
0:34:06 - (Matt Widdoes): And then you need to understand who's, who the buyers are. So it's this weird, like, two sided marketplace where you don't control either side of it technically. Are you doing that or how does that work?
0:34:17 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah, I mean, so there's an opportunity to go see the houses. I do try to look at all of the inventory that's on the market, and that kind of goes along with, like, when I'm not working in my business, I'm working on my business.
0:34:31 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah.
0:34:32 - (Kristen Perry): And the one kind of shift that I'll make is that I don't view the homes as the product. I am the product of my business of real estate. And so I have always believed that product will drive growth. If you have the good product in the right market, something that people need and want, you're going to be able to sell it. It's really hard selling a product that people don't need. I've done it. It's hard.
0:35:03 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah. Yeah.
0:35:03 - (Kristen Perry): So what I try to do to improve my product is learn about the inventory, is, you know, get on the phone and call, call plumbers and lawyers and estate trust attorneys so that I am a better product for my clients.
0:35:21 - (Matt Widdoes): That makes sense.
0:35:22 - (Kristen Perry): And you can't sell a house. I'm not, you know, if you're desperate to sell a house and you're like, you gotta buy this one. This is the best one. That's not, that doesn't matter.
0:35:33 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah, yeah.
0:35:35 - (Kristen Perry): And I would say something that people don't realize because, you know, there's a lot of talk that being a real estate agent is super easy. You just open doors. 90% of your job is finding clients. And so you need to be able to figure that out and figure out where your time and money is best spent with that. And so that's, I think what people don't necessarily see is all of the work you're doing to meet that couple and then help them buy the house.
0:36:09 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah, well, and I think that that's where that separation is of that 5%, we'll say. And it's such a great point that I hadn't considered is that, yeah, you are the product. Because when we bought our house, we had an agent, we were finding homes on zillow and being like, I want to see this one. And she was largely opening doors or saying like, oh, you're going to have to bid higher than that. Or things that felt very like, not lazy, but just didn't feel like a ton of value add. I'm like, okay, well, that's not helpful.
0:36:38 - (Matt Widdoes): And so we kind of got to the point where we looked at a lot of homes, we had put in some offers and that's a really tricky part as a buyer because you don't have equal access to information. And so it's not like an auction where you can just be like, okay, well, that's the highest bid. I can bid higher. That or not. You have to do it kind of in secret. And then they get to open all the bids in secret.
0:36:59 - (Matt Widdoes): And I found myself feeling as a buyer uninformed and out of control in some ways on my bid because, you know, we don't want to lose something, which we did. Actually, we lost a house, I think over 80k or something like that. As it turned out, it was like a really good outcome for us because we found our home that we have now, which is demonstrably a better home for us. But I had floated to her, I said, here's what I want to do.
0:37:24 - (Matt Widdoes): We're going to look at a lot of homes like we've been doing, but I want to start tracking even if we're not going to bid, especially if we're not going to bid, what I think the house will sell for, what you think the house will sell for and what my wife thinks the house will sell for. Because we're going to be looking at these either way. And so I'd like to track over time and then, you know, a month later when it hits mls or whatever, what did it sell for?
0:37:46 - (Matt Widdoes): And let's create a scorecard to see who's best at predicting almost like a game out of it, who's best at predicting it. And then what is our average? And how is our average? Is our average outperform any of us individually or whatever? Because I wanted to try to get really good at making bids that were not quarter million over or something that totally torches you or 20k under that also torches you when your head over heels and her reaction to that was, yeah, that's not my problem. Like, that's not my thing. Like, you can do that, but like, I'm not going to participate. I'm not going to fill out the sheet. I'm not going to. And I was like, you know, we have columns for square footage and how many beds and baths, and, you know, she's like, no, I want nothing to do with that. And then we were like, okay, well, this lady's like, not probably the best for us. Like, just the attitude that. Not the attitude, but like the unwillingness to kind of, because we're buying a house. Like that is going to happen. And I think on the transaction it's fairly meaningful.
0:38:38 - (Matt Widdoes): And then we found another woman who we ended up buying a house with shortly thereafter, maybe a month after who, when I flag that to her when we were interviewing. And I'm like, would you be willing to do, like, am I a weirdo? Is this like, totally unreasonable and like, not helpful? Or. And her attitude was, I've never done that. I've never even heard of it. But I love the idea and I'm willing to try it. And she did. And we bought a house pretty quickly. So anyways, I think those value add things of like, hey, before we sell this home, we're going to want to upgrade some fixtures.
0:39:07 - (Matt Widdoes): I have a team of people that will come in and just do that. They're very fast, they're trusted. It's easy. I have this other thing I'm going to do. I have a really good this and this and this to help with all. I have a moving company that'll help you get these things out. I have best stagers. Like, I thought this whole community of people that are going to, that surround me, that we work with all the time, so that this can just be easy for you. Whether you're selling or buying is super important. And most people don't have that. And they're just, and maybe that's where most people fail, is that they are just opening doors.
0:39:36 - (Matt Widdoes): And if you look at those people, those are never the top percentagers on, on sales. And then they're like, okay, this isn't easy. And they quit.
0:39:43 - (Kristen Perry): And I think that's been definitely a revelation is there's no easy way to become one of the top agents. Like, you are working hard and if you're not working hard, you're probably not a top agent. And I think it takes a real resilience to want to do that and know that, like, you know, we're in tech, the further up you get in your career, the, like, less work you have to do. But, like, you never stop having to, like, work really hard, even, like, getting your hands sturdy as a top agent, in my opinion, or how I would run my business. And that's what's great, is you get to run your business however you want.
0:40:18 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah. And so, okay, so you've got this new. So now. So now we are two years later. Right from that. From the first grind, like you said, it never really stops for the best, for the best people. And I think that's probably true for any industry where the barrier of entry is fairly low, because if the barrier to entry is very low, then you have way more competition. I think maybe a good parallel is like, the content, right.
0:40:46 - (Matt Widdoes): Podcast that we were doing went out. Barrier to entry is nothing. It's like a mic, and we don't even need Mike. And so it's like, how do you. How do you create that? That's a whole other thing. And so it's like, yeah, you grind. You look at, like, the Mister beasts, those guys. He's never not doing something or whatever. And so I think that kind of drive is super important, the lower barrier of entry. So now you've got. So now you've got a team. We're fast forwarded. Any, like, key things that you think may have helped from your experience in tech or things that maybe you've learned here in this that you're like, oh, if I had known this when I was in tech, I would have been more successful in tech or if I had approached it through this way.
0:41:28 - (Matt Widdoes): Any kind of learnings there or thoughts generally?
0:41:32 - (Kristen Perry): Yeah, I mean, I think when you're starting a business, I think there's really, there's a really steep learning, learning curve. And anyone who's starting their business, it's scary because if you don't, like, if you don't hunt, you don't eat. And so there's a different drive that, that happens when it's your business. You know, I always viewed myself as somebody who had a high level of standard for my job and for whoever I was working for.
0:41:59 - (Kristen Perry): And I was not working nearly as hard as I am now on building my career because it's, you know, there is no other option.
0:42:09 - (Matt Widdoes): You're all in. Yeah, I'm all in.
0:42:12 - (Kristen Perry): But there's also. It's so much more rewarding. And so, you know, when I think about, again, tech and the product being the most important, I want to be a good product. And so it's just constant learning, its constant adaptation. I would say that one of the things I see a lot of agents struggle with that I feel like I'm very resilient to because of tech is just adaptability and understanding that, like the status quo won't proceed forever.
0:42:46 - (Kristen Perry): Like it's an incredibly entrenched industry and it's changing. It has to change. Pretty much every other industry has been affected by tech and real estate really hasn't. And so we're seeing a little bit of that now. And I see a lot of agents getting stuck on yelling about the hypocrisy or fighting it as opposed to like using that energy to, okay, it changed. Now I'm going to change. Now I'm going to learn how to weather this and be better because of it. I'm going to use this to my advantage.
0:43:18 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah, well, and you see that a lot. I mean, tech is like that in a nutshell, right? You look at any sort of innovation, whether it is AI and somebody saying, okay, well, like I'm a writer and AI is here. So, okay, well, I'll use AI to write ten times as fast and I will become an editor or I will then create an AI agent to be my editor and I will focus on concepting or I will get out of writing, I don't know.
0:43:44 - (Matt Widdoes): And so, or switch to a different medium that is not supported by the tech. I'm curious. You mentioned that hypocrisy. Unpack that. What is, I didn't, that didn't, I don't know, what's the toe, the undertow there? Yeah.
0:43:57 - (Kristen Perry): So, I mean, the biggest news, I'm sure everybody has seen the headlines around real ester commission. I haven't.
0:44:04 - (Matt Widdoes): No, I haven't.
0:44:05 - (Kristen Perry): Oh gosh, you've been living under a rock.
0:44:07 - (Matt Widdoes): Okay, what is it?
0:44:09 - (Kristen Perry): So in a traditional transaction, you know, kind of what had been is that the seller will pay the commission for both the buying agent and the selling agent. There are many reasons why I, this makes sense from like an economical standpoint of like who is going to be cash heavy and who's not after a transaction. And now essentially you're not able to advertise in the MLS if the seller is offering that compensation, which used to.
0:44:37 - (Matt Widdoes): Just be the standard.
0:44:38 - (Kristen Perry): Which used to be the standard, always negotiable. But it's kind of like what you would recommend because it just makes sense. Otherwise, you're looking for an all cash buyer and the guy who did the settlement is now started a flat fee real estate company. Right. So there's like and everybody's talking about it, and you're like, stop giving him credence. A. Just stop talking about it.
0:45:00 - (Matt Widdoes): Okay.
0:45:00 - (Kristen Perry): But also just, like, focus on showing why you have value, but learn how to communicate your value proposition as opposed to fight this change.
0:45:13 - (Matt Widdoes): Got it? Yeah. Okay. And that's. Yeah, and that's true. I mean, all of that applies to tech. I mean, thinking about this through a founder's lens, where it's like, yes. Like, you're going to have competitors. Yes. You're going to have regulation, you're going to have new things at blindside, and coming back to real relationships, understanding what your clients and customers need for you to stand out as, you know, you yourself as the product, but also your product in the more traditional sense.
0:45:45 - (Matt Widdoes): And that kind of ground effort that is irreplaceable in building a business that never goes away, whether it's a lemonade stand or it is a multi billion dollar tech company. Like, there's always a potential for crickets, and there's always a potential for, like, explosive growth and finding out those levers that, where your time is best spent, I and are actually meaningful, which is easier in some cases than others from a measurability standpoint.
0:46:11 - (Matt Widdoes): Cool. Well, any other lessons or things that you would share for somebody or advice you would give to somebody who's thinking about either starting their own business in any industry or leaving Silicon Valley or leaving their careers in Silicon Valley? Any parting advice or thoughts or words of wisdom?
0:46:30 - (Kristen Perry): I guess I would just say, focus on if you really think you need to get out of tech, focus on what you'd love to do, and then figure out how to make a career for that. My siblings and I have all now worked in tech and left tech, which I think is interesting. And we've done so in ways where we're finding things that bring us joy and bring us value, and then figuring out how to make money from it, know that, you know, it's gonna be nothing worth doing is ever going to be easy.
0:47:03 - (Kristen Perry): And so if you're just tired, and if you're just wanting to not work as hard, then don't expect to be as successful. I think, you know, one of the ways in which I've been able to find success in real estate is I show up every day from 09:00 to 05:00 this is a lot of the benefit of real estate, is having a flexible career and having, you know, getting to be with my kid a couple days a week, where ordinarily, you know, have to put them in childcare if it was a Monday through Friday job, that doesn't mean I'm not working those hours elsewhere. And so there is no easy path. And so just make sure that whatever you're choosing, you're willing to work really hard for it.
0:47:47 - (Matt Widdoes): Makes total sense. And, yeah, I think it's often, there's always, the grass is greener on the other side. And it's like, hey, either way, if you're. If your ambition is high and you want to be successful, you're going to be working hard on something. So, yeah, the idea that it might as well be something you love.
0:48:05 - (Kristen Perry): And I envy people who can look at a job like a job and then their life as a life and can compartmentalize that way, I never could. My job and my career was such a big part of who I was and continues to be. And so as my life got, again, more fulfilling, I needed my career to also be even more fulfilling, because if I'm gonna leave my son for 8 hours a day, I want it to be for something I'm really enjoying. And that I say that with a lot of privilege because a lot of people don't have that type of choice, but, you know, and tech just wasn't doing it for me anymore. That said, and I tell this, with people, when they're buying homes all the time, you can always go back, like, don't be scared of making a big life change because, like, I could go back and get a job, probably an ad tech tomorrow. I don't want to right now.
0:49:01 - (Kristen Perry): But, you know, it's funny because a lot of real estate agents, they're on their second or third career.
0:49:06 - (Matt Widdoes): I see.
0:49:07 - (Kristen Perry): And so the opportunity is there. You just, you know, depends how you want to spend your time and spend your life.
0:49:13 - (Matt Widdoes): Yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much. And if anybody is looking to buy home, how could they find you? They could google you. But where? How would I find Chris and Perry to buy or sell me a home?
0:49:22 - (Kristen Perry): You can give me a call. 415-580-1480 as a say that number one more time. Four 1545-580-1480 and I will say, as the millennial in me, and this is another sales tip, man, I never made so many calls. Pick up the phone and call. It is such a game changer in life. You need to get something done. Get on a call, I think where we get too comfortable behind email and text.
0:49:48 - (Matt Widdoes): Email. I love that. Well, what a direct, direct way. Now I'm fearful of all the calls you may receive. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Cool. Well, so great. Catching up with you and wish you continued success. If we ever are buying or selling a home in Marin or elsewhere in the Bay area, I'll be sure to let you know. And, yeah, thanks again for the time today.
0:50:13 - (Kristen Perry): Thanks, Matt.