Matt Widdoes 

Welcome to Growth at Scale. I'm your host, Matt Widdoes. This is a podcast for leaders who want to bring sustainable, predictable, scalable growth to their businesses. Every episode I sit down with world -class growth experts across product, marketing, finance, operations, you name it. The hope is that these conversations will give you real, actionable advice for building and sustaining company growth. Our guest today is Jeremy Leal, the founder of Uncle Terp. Jeremy brings his entrepreneurial know -how and years of Red Bull and Bacardi experience to the table as we talk all things experiential marketing. Welcome to the Maven podcast. I'm your host and CEO of Maven .com, Matt Widows. And today, we have Jeremy Leal with us to talk about experiential, to talk about event. Jeremy, welcome to the podcast. 

Jeremy Leal 

Hey, thank you very much. 

Matt Widdoes

Tell us who you are. What do you do? What's your name? Where are you at? 

Jeremy Leal

Yeah, thank you. My name is Jeremy Leal. I currently reside in Dallas, Texas, but I'm from Tulsa, Oklahoma. 

Matt Widdoes 

Okay. And what company are you at? What do you do at that company? 

Jeremy Leal 

So, I currently have two business ventures in Oklahoma and cannabis. One is a dispensary called Earth Wind and Flower. That's in Ardmore, Oklahoma. And then we just recently launched a wholesale brand, gummy line called Uncle Terp. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah, I love the name Earth Wind and Flower. So, you spent over 11. What's that? 

Jeremy Leal 

It's groovy, right? 

Matt Widdoes 

It's groovy for sure. So, you spent over 11 years at Red Bull in various roles. We'll talk about some other places that you've been, but what was that like? I think Red Bull is kind of on this pedestal in many respects, particularly as it relates to event. What was that like? There must be some good stories, maybe some big learnings or takeaways. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? 

Jeremy Leal 

I mean, I think it is a pretty special place. And I was selling perfume out of a kiosk in the mall and crossroads. And this is in 2004. 

Matt Widdoes 

It's a mall in Oklahoma City. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, it's a pretty rundown mall. I don't even think it's a mall anymore.

Matt Widdoes 

I don't think there are malls anymore. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, the marketplace is Amazon. 

Matt Widdoes 

But you were selling perfume. This is like a holiday kind of gig. 

Jeremy Leal 

It was my full -time gig. 

Matt Widdoes 

And now are you selling like normal cool water cologne brands? Are you selling water? 

Jeremy Leal 

Aquadigio, all the. 

Matt Widdoes 

What were the big sellers? This is back in early 2000s. 

Jeremy Leal 

This I was, you know, that was my job in high school. And they had multiple, you know, businesses in Oklahoma. 

Matt Widdoes 

Did you sell jupe? 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, yo, yo, yo, yo. Curve. Somebody. Oh, yo. Oh, it's called the yo. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah, yeah. Somebody, I saw somebody. Did you sell Curve? Is that a thing? Did you know what that is? 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, it was. 

Matt Widdoes 

They said you curve. If you wear that, people curve around you. What was the big seller back then? 

Jeremy Leal 

Man, I would say Aquadigio. 

Matt Widdoes 

OK. So, okay, so you're working that job and what? You've got the, you meet some Red Bull people? 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, well, they meet me. You know, I was discovered. And so, no, it was a, you know, now longtime friend Naomi and her co -worker Rachel, and they were sampling Red Bull, you know, and 2004, no one knew what Red Bull was, you know, it could be a beer, it could be, you know, like a... 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah, it still had some mystique. 

Jeremy Leal 

Well, very much so. 

Matt Widdoes 

And people thought it was different things. They thought it had alcohol. It was a bull urine or something. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah. And so, you know, they gave me a Red Bull and, you know, it was close to nine o 'clock when the mall's closed. And so I'm like zipping up my cart and they followed me out to the car and I had a 79 Camaro. And I remember Naomi saying, your car is way too cool to be selling perfume at the mall. Do you want to, you know, do you want to interview for Red Bull? I'm like, well, sure. And that's, you know, where I met you, Matt, was at the audition process. Right. 

Matt Widdoes 

For those who don't know, Red Bull has a pretty unique hiring process where they take in about 20 people at a time, usually just one time. And there is kind of improv games and various other things that they're looking for, for kind of agreeability, ability to kind of shift gears quickly to, you know, improv well and listen and kind of add on to things. Okay. So, you know, post college, you're at Red Bull, post college, you go to IBM, I think for a little bit, but you come back to Red Bull in a more serious grown up role. What was that? And you kind of walk us through that progression at Red Bull kind of post graduation. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah. So like, you know, when I graduated in Oklahoma in 2006, Red Bull was still a pretty infant company. There was only, you know, a couple hundred people in the US. And so there wasn't a full time job for me. So I did work for IBM. That's what brought me to Dallas. And then I was still connected and I still love the brand. And I was able to, you know, transition into an on -premise manager role. So that was just selling to all the nightclubs, bars, hotels, restaurants in Dallas. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah, and this role, you partner closely with both the sales teams. I mean, you're essentially part of the sales team, but you're partnering very closely with the marketing teams, the event teams, et cetera. You're also kind of the majority of your day is spent going around between bars, essentially when they're not that busy. And then a good portion, I think, of your nights and certainly the weekends are going to these kind of bigger events at the bars where Red Bull has some prominence, et cetera. Walk us through kind of the day and the night of an on -premise manager. 

Jeremy Leal 

Well, so let's just define what on -premise means. On -premise is where you drink Red Bull on -premise. So you drink it at the bar, at the hotel, at the restaurant. Off -premise is a gas station and a grocery store. So for the listeners that don't understand the distinction on and off -premise. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah, and this is true across all beverage, basically. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, yeah. for sure. But like it's not necessarily a common, you know, common language for someone that's not, you know, hasn't done that kind of, you know, sales. The importance about on premise is that's where people have trial. That's where they have their experiences. And so, you know, you wouldn't go to the liquor store and buy a bottle of crown apple, right? A handle of crown apple. If you hadn't tried it and maybe a martini the night before, you know, it's pretty rare. It's just not normal buying behavior, you know, like you're not going to go and buy in bulk something that you never tried. So that's why Red Bull, you know, on premise was so important because that was where the first time people experienced Red Bull, you know, Red Bull vodka at the time is Red Bull Jäger, you know, like it was, you know, those kind of places where like your experiences were created and Red Bull was launched in the on premise, you know, it was launched in a nightclub in Austria. 

Matt Widdoes 

You know, it's funny because they say that listeners can kind of put themselves in this position, but most of the time when you're walking in a bar, you're going to decide what you're going to drink as you're approaching the bar by looking around the place. And sometimes you see a bunch of Moscow mules in copper mugs and sometimes you see a bunch of tall mojitos. And if you were in a high quality on premise account, Red Bull, I think correct me if I'm wrong, but would give incentives for serving the full can instead of just making a Red Bull Vodka and saving the other half of the Red Bull, serving the full can with the drink so it would go out and act essentially as an advertisement on the table. So if anybody's ever been in a place and you saw a bunch of Red Bull cans on the on the tables, that was one of those. And if I remember correctly, that was something on premise managers often would fight for, which is, Hey, serve the whole can. Don't just try and maximize your profits here. What was that like? 

Jeremy Leal 

Well, I mean, that's that was a challenge in the US. So like in, you know, like European culture, getting, you know, the full can of Red Bull or getting even like a bottle of you know, Sprite or Coke back, that's just tradition. You know, it's just like kind of served. It's just how it is, you know. But to your point, you know, in the U .S., that wasn't, that was never the culture. And if you pour Red Bull into vodka or Red Bull into tequila, it's just any other drink. If it doesn't come with a Red Bull back, it's just any other what they call long drinks, you know, it's just a mixed drink. So, you know, someone walking around with a Modello or with a Heineken, I mean, that is, you know, amazing advertisement. So, Red Bull, you know, still today, You know, I went to Red Bull event last night. I went to one that I used to, you know, produce to industry event and the bartenders were still not giving the full can of Red Bull at the event. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah, well, it's expensive. The bar owners, they're trying to maximize. 

Jeremy Leal 

The Red Bull already had paid for it. It's just a habit, you know? It's just a habit. 

Matt Widdoes 

And so, so then you go in and you leave on -prem, you go into being a field marketing manager, which kind of looking after a region, doing lots of different things. What was that like? What were some of the, you know, I think what I'd love to dive into a little bit is like focused on, you know, what makes like, I don't know, let's focus on Red Bull for a second. Like any good stories, any like funny stories or big, you know, celebrity encounters or famous, you know, other things or, and or I guess like biggest learnings and takeaways from that time, just from like marketing generally or brand or any of these things that Red Bull is kind of well known for. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah. So that was probably the most pivotal point, you know, of my career. Cause I had been really sales driven, you know, or sales heavy on my resume. I went to IBM as you, you know, had mentioned out of college, then I had another five years of sales at Red Bull. And so I was really sales heavy and going to the marketing side in Kansas City gave me a balance, you know, and I was able to, you know, cross function with a lot of different departments, you know, that, you know, when you're in a sales role, a lot of times you're siloed, you know, it's just you against, you know, your numbers, you against the other person. When you're in marketing, you know, and you're spending money and not generating money on paper, you know, you have to kind of justify your position, you know, like justify your budget. And so, you know, I moved to Kansas City from Dallas and I managed seven states and I was managing the field marketing. So that was the sampling program, you know, the wings team sampling cars. And that was the student brand managers on campus. So I would say that was a challenging move because I went to a smaller market, you know, Kansas City was a less important market in the region. And so some could consider it a downgrade, but I knew that, you know, if I could excel at that job, it would actually, you know, put my resume kind of balance and even and make me more versatile for the next job. 

Matt Widdoes 

I think it's more fun going into those types of things because it's like a blank slate and you're starting from zero. I like to build though and it's different than, you know, going into the New York City market where it's like, okay, your next two years are essentially planned out for you. It seems like way less interesting. It's more attractive from a location standpoint for many. But yeah, so, okay, so what was that like? You know, did, you know, any key learnings that you kind of left Red Bull with and I'd love to kind of go into the next phase of your career as you went on to start your own agency that was focused really on event and experiential in some ways. Any big takeaways from Red Bull? 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, so that wasn't even like you're you're cutting my Red Bull career short. 

Matt Widdoes 

Well, let's get into it. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, you know, that was that was. You know, that was only a year and a half. So now we're in 2012. 

Matt Widdoes 

Right, and you go to Florida after that. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yep, yep. So, you know, I remember getting an email, and it was, you know, one of their earlier winter days. And in Kansas City, it's a lot colder than Dallas. And it was, you know, probably November, December. And I get an email from the head on -premise in South Florida. And he said, would you want to move to Miami? That was in the email subject. I'd never met this gentleman, but he had heard of me in, you know, in Dallas, but also had of me in Kansas City. And I was able to make the transition to on -premise marketing manager. And so I ended up moving to Florida. And on -premise marketing, right, we talked about is, you know, on -premises, you know, anywhere where people drink Red Bull on -premise. On -premise marketing now is talking to all the people that shape and make nightlife. You know, that make the experiences at the festivals, at the bars, you know, at the concerts, like they're kind of the thankless, you know, ambassadors that shape your weekends, shape your memories really, you know, including, you know, generally alcohol. 

Matt Widdoes 

And much more of a marketing role, not a sales role. You're not talking to bar owners, you're talking to like promoters and stuff like that. 

Jeremy Leal 

Well, you're talking to all of them, but it's not sales driven. 

Matt Widdoes 

The goal is not to sell more cases of Red Bull. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah. Well, that's the indirect goal because you're trying to help the sales team. But you're implementing like loyalty programs and you're implementing, you know, cool things where a go -go dancer, a doorman, a bar back can actually like associate a cool factor with Red Bull, you know, like you're speaking to a lot of people that generally don't get, you know, the attention, you know, the bar manager, you know, the bar owner generally wants that get the attention from Red Bull, get the kickback, get the incentive. But like if you're a bar back or if you're a doorman, man, you're just, you know, 

Matt Widdoes 

Nobody's paying attention. So, so what is that type of thing? It looks like what do you, what do you, how are you engaging with the doorman, the gogo dancer? What, what does that look like? 

Jeremy Leal 

So like one of them we did, you know, and it was a program I stole from my marketing days at, you know, in Kansas city, it was called Red X. And like Red X was a student brand manager hack where, you know, they would dress up like as a FedEx person or a UPS person, and they would make a delivery of Red Bull to like maybe the fraternity president, you know, in a classroom. Now today, like making an unmarked box package is a little more dangerous and probably scrutinized, you know, like just for security reasons. But back then, you know, it was just a rogue, like, you know, hack and a hack is something that doesn't create damage or harm. You know, it's just something that's kind of like not expected and definitely not announced, you know, like you don't ask in advance. Are you thinking? 

Matt Widdoes 

Would they just get a UPS outfit from eBay or something? And was it like played up like an actor's thing? Like, hey, I've got a special delivery for Mark Knutz. 

Jeremy Leal 

It was kind of, it wasn't necessarily like, you know, streamlined, but like you could have the scrunchie socks and you could have, you know, the shirt and the shorts and the boots, you know that. 

Matt Widdoes 

But the plan was to make a spectacle of it a little bit. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, like so you walk into like a big classroom, you know, 400, 500 people. Maybe it's like a freshman lecture hall, you know, like we're all, you know, we went to OU Matt, you know, like, you know, Dr. Zoller, remember him? I don't know if you took him for biology, but you got 600 students and you, and you walk in with a package and you walk to the fraternity president and you give him a package in the middle of class. That creates a scene. 

Matt Widdoes 

Would they like announce the guy's name or I'm just so intrigued by this. So they just, they just knew who they were looking for. 

Jeremy Leal 

So like, yeah, so you just like, you work for Red Bull. 

Matt Widdoes 

Is the president in on it or no? 

Jeremy Leal 

No, no, no, no, no, but like, you might know one of his fraternity brothers and be like, oh, yeah, 

Matt Widdoes 

You know where he's sitting. 

Jeremy Leal 

You kind of sit or you just, you know, or you might even like talk. But anyways, like we digress, but, you know, so like, you know, you asked me how you would do that to a doorman. Like we would like, like I knew the prominent door people, like for the hardest doors in Miami. 

Matt Widdoes 

And so we, which is a big deal. Miami is pretty competitive. 

Jeremy Leal 

You know, like, even if you're a female, it doesn't mean that you're walking straight in. And it doesn't mean that you are not paying for your drinks. Like, you know, like sometimes like in Vegas, right? If you're attractive male or female, like sometimes you're just walked to a table in Miami, you might just have to pay for it. I know exactly what that's like. 

Matt Widdoes 

I'm just gonna, in Miami. Yeah, Miami's cold -blooded and like, it's a totally different scene. So, okay, so you go to these door guys. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, so like, so you would send, you would send these, what I sent was Wingteam girls, but you know, I had these like specialty boxes that were packed like four packs in twenty four packs and you would actually walk up with like the bill of lading, the white, the yellow and the pink sheet and you would have them sign for it, right? But it was a spectacle. So they're walking up and you're just like, Hey, Roy, you know, at the fountain blue, you know, I got a package for you. And so now he's on the spot. And but then he opens it up. And I got, I got photos of this too. It's pretty cool. It's like, you see this raw of like, man, that the surprise and delight. And I think that's what we're going to get into with experiential. It's like, how can you be surprised? Right? Like what makes this different? And we could have sent the Red Bull girls with the car and they would have got the cold camp. Very different. But now he's in a line. It's like, you know, maybe one, one a .m. The bars closed at five. And now the line stops and he gets a special package. Like, that's pretty cool. And they know his name and his names and the information's already filled out. You know, right, right, right. Does that make sense? 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah, feels a bit. 100% yeah, and how would that work with a go -go girl? 

Jeremy Leal 

Well, I mean, I don't know if it works with the go -go girl But like yeah, it's still- 

Matt Widdoes 

Just little things that are special. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, but like you know like so I did this I did this bar clean takeover right and so this doesn't go with the go -go girl But this goes with the bar back so a bar, you know, we were talking yesterday about you know You had bartending and stuff the bar clean is any bartenders, you know worse day because Generally it's on their day off and it's unpaid But it's where they actually have to go and do a you know deep clean 

Matt Widdoes 

Swap out nozzles and the whole thing. 

Jeremy Leal 

Everything You know like and it's it's generally on a Monday or Tuesday when the bar is closed But they have to actually be the cleaning crew so I did a bar clean takeover where you know I worked with the general manager. They you know told their whole crew You know the bartenders and the bar backs that they had to come and work on a Monday But I already had a cleaning crew ready for them and we took them on an excursion, you know I took them wait 

Matt Widdoes 

So they come in expecting to have the worst day 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, now they have a great day, you know like either taking wakeboarding or I take them to like you know like a midday brunch And so that was you know on -premise marketing. It's like how can you speak to these kind of unsung heroes? 

Matt Widdoes 

You know, and they're influencers in their own right there They're their big fish in a small pond. 

Jeremy Leal 

But all of them are you know Whether it's a bartender a bar back no go like if they don't speak highly of your brand then you could not make it possibly You know, especially if they're speaking poorly like you go to a nice Italian restaurant You say house the lasagna and they're like well my grandma makes better well, you're not gonna get the lasagna Right, you know, yeah, you're switching to something else. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah Okay, got it. Those are great examples any other fun stuff any big events any other stuff from Red Bull worth talking about? 

Jeremy Leal 

I mean Red Bull is a special place, you know and like the business card means something You know like anywhere in the world you say you work for Red Bull. It means something, you know, like there's some work to it and you can't pay for that experience. It's just not something money can necessarily buy. I'll give you one example and maybe we'll move on to the next phase. But I had this promoter and this is 2015. Her name was YesJulz. And at that time she had 500 ,000 Instagram followers. That's a lot in 2015. And she was one of the early adopters of Snapchat. Ryan Seacrest named her one of the top Snapchat influencers of 2015. It was more so like things that Red Bull could give you that money can't buy. You just have to be present. You have to kind of accept the inherent responsibilities of it too. It was challenging to always be on. But anyways, we're talking about 2015. YesJulz, she was a social media influencer. Again, this is like almost eight years ago. This was a kind of a new thing. Now it's pretty standard. But she called me up. And she's like, "Hey, can you do me a favor? I have this up and coming rapper. And the only problem is he's not 21, but I want to show him a good time in Miami." And I'm like, okay, yeah, no problem. She's like, no, he's going to be like a big deal. And I'm like, okay. So then I take this guy around, I get him through the doors, like no one checks my ID, right? Cause like I'm friends with all the bouncers. And we just like, it's just a thing. It turns out this guy was Travis Scott, you know? 

Matt Widdoes 

Oh, crazy. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah. So you're just hanging out with Travis Scott. And you're like, literally it's just you, Travis, and your friend Jules. And she's like, he's going to be a big deal. And it turns out he was. 

Matt Widdoes 

And you're like, yeah, whatever. Yeah, how funny. 

Jeremy Leal 

But that's like something that Red Bull, you know, like it just goes outside of your compensation package. You know, like, you know, like there is, you know, like you want to get paid for your job, but there's certain perks that, you know, you just can't account for, you know? 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah, I was never paid less or had more fun. So it's like, they go, they go not hand in hand, but I remember, yeah, it was a pretty big switch going in outside of Red Bull. And it's because it's highly competitive and because it is very fun. And you're working 100 hour weeks, the catch is like 60 of those are on nights and weekends where you're not really working. You're at a club with Travis Scott or doing something like that. So there is a certain lifestyle, but you know, you give your life to Red Bull. 

Jeremy Leal 

But you're always, even when it's nights and weekends, if you flash your business card, you're at work, you know? Like you put yourself on the clock. You have to care that responsibility of like that's the Red Bull guy. You know, even in another state, you flash your card, you're on the clock. And you're responsible for the, you know, for the actions. 

Matt Widdoes 

Whatever may come. Well, and like you said, it was a small group. So, you know, when I moved to California to take the Northern California role, yeah, there were 250 people or something. And most people would think, well, Red Bull must be thousands of people. I don't know what the latest numbers are, but it's something like... $15 billion a year in sales or something insane. I saw the other day, number one drink in the world is Coke, followed by Pepsi, followed by Red Bull. So Red Bull beats out Sprite, beats out Gatorade, beats out all these other things that you wouldn't necessarily imagine. And it's essentially owned by two people privately, and only one of whom is really known. 

Matt Widdoes 

Okay, so you're there, you're in Florida, you've kind of ingratiated yourself into the scene of Miami nightlife, which must be insane. And that's like a whole other thing to try and keep up with. And because you're doing it as a professional, right? You're not a DJ, right? Yes. It's a slightly different deal. Then you decide, I think while you're there, or do you move to Austin at that point? What's next for you? What are you doing? 

Jeremy Leal 

No, so like I was there and then it's 2016. So I was at Red Bull from 2004 to 2016, you know, with that little tiny IBM experience in Dallas, but you know, roughly 12 years. And then I go to Tito's. And it was just, you know, it was a different culture, you know, it was still in their startup stage. But they weren't as progressive and anti -authoritarian as Red Bull. You know, it wasn't, you know, it was more, let's do what everyone else does. 

Matt Widdoes 

You know, this is a little more buttoned up. 

Jeremy Leal 

Well, you know, just like more like traditional, you know, versus like, let's just break all the rules, you know, and who cares? And so I was there for a year and a half and I was doing event marketing for festivals and food and wine and, you know, huge golf tournaments. And, but, you know, it was hard to get back to where I was at Red Bull, right? In terms of just the people, the job, you know, kind of that. And all my friends had left Red Bull and gone to deep Eddie Vodka, you know? So now, you know, like 

Matt Widdoes 

A big competitor of Tito's, right? And Austin-based. 

Jeremy Leal 

Tito's is still like giant, you know, like they are probably the top selling Vodka in the world right now, you know, like outselling Grey Goose and Belvedere and, you know, Kettle One, like Tito's is just an impressive, impressive.  Just like, and just like Red Bull, you know, one owner. 

Matt Widdoes 

Well, and eight years ago, not a lot of people knew what Tito's was. I mean, it was kind of like a local Austin thing that blew up. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah. So, you know, like I was like, OK, well, I'm just going to go and work for this other kind of startup, but you already know that they have, you know, a name to them. And it just, it just wasn't where my heart was. And all my friends had worked for Deep Eddy Vodka, you know? So I'm like, well, how can I work with my friends again? And that's really what it boils down to is how can I work with my friends and make money at the same time? You know, like that's kind of like how I calculate, you know, happiness, you know, at the workplace. So I started my own agency called Helen, you know, and I was always been fond of Greek mythology. And, you know, the story of Helen of Troy has always been fascinating how one woman could disrupt the entire world. You know, she's probably the most infamous woman in the world, right? Of all time. You can put her in that category. And so I started Helen Agency as a brand ambassador program. And so I hired promo models and, you know, and I wanted, you know, generally females, but it could be, you know, other, it could be males too, but I wanted them to be like Helen, you know, strong, confident, defiant, you know, like eloquent, you know, attractive, charismatic in their own right. And so that's how I started Helen agency. And, you know, I started booking all the deep Eddy promo girls. 

Matt Widdoes 

That's funny. And so, and you would you serve, you'd serve other liquor brands, other beverage, other anything? 

Jeremy Leal 

Yes. Well, I started with deep Eddy vodka, you know, and like I said, all my friends left when they left Red Bull, they went to deep Eddy, you know, a handful of them, you know, to launch that brand. And so I was like, well, those are all my friends. It's an easy client, you know, and they have promo models. Why can't I just book their promo models? And so I started, you know, booking their girls under, you know, the name Helen. 

Matt Widdoes 

And then you're, you know, you're there doing Helen for four or five years. What was that like? How was that different? How what, what learnings did you pull from Red Bull into that? What, uh, was it totally different? How do you think, you know, did Red Bull give you an edge in that? Like what, what, what learnings carried? 

Jeremy Leal 

I don't know if Red Bull gave, you know, necessarily he gave me the edge, but you definitely learn a lot about, you know, your character. You learn a lot about, you know, being resilient and, you know, and just being a self, you know, motivator. Well, cause you know, now you're going into entrepreneurship, you know, and there is no guarantee paycheck. There is no one calling you and saying, why did you, you know, not show up to work? You know, like, or there's not that paycheck every other Friday or the 401k matching. So you really have to learn a lot about, you know, you know, there's, there's pros and cons, you know, to being self -employed and being employed. And I tell anyone that, you know, does it. I'm like, I think they're equal, you know, it just depends on what you want. 

Matt Widdoes 

So having done so much of that events with Red Bull days and being around those and doing the work that you guys were doing at Helen agency, what would you say kind of goes into effective experiential or event activations? And then like when and where is experiential appropriate? There's a lot of people that are listening that probably have thought about leveraging event or some of these not crazier, but kind of more non -traditional things like your red X examples, stuff like that. When planning an event or planning something that is meant to be experiential. And again, so often these things are hard to track the ROI, et cetera. But, you know, we know they have an impact. What kind of key ingredients or consistent things are there, if any, that, that kind of go into making one of those successful? 

Jeremy Leal 

So I wouldn't say that like my role at Helen agency had much experiential to it. You know, I was more of like, Hey, I need this person this time, this place, you know. 

Matt Widdoes 

More sampling, essentially. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, you know, but like, you know, to go to experiential one. I got a lot of that out of Red Bull and some out of Tito's. And then later on, I worked at Bumble. It's more about that one -on -one connection. And that's what made Red Bull really a global success is being able to hand that cold can of Red Bull, explain the benefits, explain the ingredients, overcome any objections of, well, I don't drink caffeine or I don't like too much. And you're like, well, that's only 80 milligrams. That's as much as four ounces of coffee. They're like, well, man, I drink a whole kettle of it every morning. Right? Like, and two people. So I think experiential marketing is very expensive. It's the most expensive form of marketing, but it's the most effective if you can pull it off. You know? 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah. When you think about CPMs or dollar per head, essentially, it's through the roof. Right. 

Jeremy Leal 

You know? And I went to that Red Bull event last night. And it was an event, it's called Red Monday. And traditionally, industry people, like to party on Mondays, or Sundays or Tuesdays.It's their day off work. Like a lot of places are closed or slow or whatever, or they've worked the whole weekend. And they were doing a pop -up tattoo parlor and they had flash tattoos. And it's a cool kind of like gimmick concept, but they were doing like cactuses. And blue bonnets and like the state outline of Texas. And I'm like, man, like I could get that $50 tattoo, but get something I actually like. And so for me, the idea was okay, but to maybe make it a little bit more like lifestyle, like stay groovy, or you only live once, right? Like have that be the flash tattoo, something more inspirational than like a cactus or the state outline of Texas. So it didn't work for me and I'm covered in tattoos. 

Matt Widdoes 

Well, maybe that's why though, cause you don't want a temporary tattoo. If you wanted a tattoo, you already have it. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, well, but I have a bunch of tattoos, but I didn't want to get one that didn't cost me anything, but didn't mean anything also. 

Matt Widdoes 

Right, yeah, yeah. You look at them differently, right? 

Jeremy Leal 

 It just wasn't, I didn't feel like it just connected well. Like it just, for, if I was gonna do a tattoo pop -up, like we've done tattoo pop -ups with Red Bull, like it would just like either the flash tattoo section would be the catalog would be much more in depth, like more diverse, whereas like, man, I don't want a cactus, but I'd rather get this hummingbird, but they didn't have a hummingbird. They had a swallow. 

Matt Widdoes 

The guy is like, "I can only do cactuses. Well, the other thing is you're trying to keep it like fresh too, right? So you're like, I don't want to do tattoos again. Like we're not gonna do another photo booth with like wacky sayings. And then it's like, are we gonna  do like chocolate fountain, like we're doing a popcorn machine. Like there's just only so many things that are within budget, right? Say $10 ,000 that you can bring to an event like that, that are meaningful. So I can really appreciate somebody who's got to throw 100 events a year in the same market or 20 events a year in the same market, trying to keep it fresh. And I guess that's maybe one big one is how do you keep it fresh and relevant? 

Jeremy Leal 

So I mean, like I said, there's not, there's not a right formula. I've seen a bunch, but experiential can be super effective if, you know, if in budget, you know, if you have the budget, you know, like, and I don't think it makes sense for all industries. Like I don't know, you know, if Geico, you know, can, can pull off an effective, you know, like experiential marketing campaign. 

Matt Widdoes 

I've seen him do those little squish balls at like local fairs. Yeah. Like literally Geico with a big Geico lizard or something like that that you could take a picture with. So funny you mentioned Geico, but like, yeah, is that really, are we selling more insurance now? Maybe. I mean, they run a ton of TV and so. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, but it's like, do they do a pop up at Bonnaroo? And what does that look like? So maybe it's you, as in your high school years and you're an old school simulator, before you get past your driving test, and you can get a score. And they just, you know what I'm saying? You could do it in any industry, but I think there's certain ones that just play more into it. 

Matt Widdoes 

And so now you've kind of changed careers and industry really. You've gone from what we could probably lump all together essentially in Beverage. And now you're in cannabis. Tell us about that. So you started Earth, Wind and Flower in Oklahoma, which is a dispensary in Ardmore, Oklahoma, just north of the Texas border. You've more recently started your own brand called Uncle Terp, which are a unique kind of gummy product. Talk to us about, maybe tell us a little bit about Uncle Terp and what's unique about it. And I'd love to kind of dig in a little bit on the brand building process, how you go about that. You've done that before with Helen. You've thought about that a lot in other roles. So tell us about Uncle Terp. What makes it unique? 

Jeremy Leal 

Well, I think the best business school I ever went to was Red Bull. And I think a lot of people, maybe even yourself, could say that was one of the most pivotal moments of your career. Formative, for sure. And so if you take it more for, then outside of the job scope and that you get paid and you actually take it serious, you can really learn a lot. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah, you can do whatever you want. Essentially, you have very few rules and lots of openness and willingness to try new things. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, but that and they just are so, they're such strict guideline. It has to look like this and it has to sound like that and it has to create this emotion. They have such almost unattainable. 

Matt Widdoes 

That's true, brand guidelines. 

Jeremy Leal 

Almost unattainable sometimes, where you're just like, if you can somehow almost reach perfection. You know, it looks like Red Bull, you know, or at least that's, you know, like, and so for Uncle Terp, you know, like there's a ton of, you know, brands in Oklahoma, you know, Oklahoma is the Wild West of cannabis. I mean, it is like the global Wild West of cannabis. 

Matt Widdoes 

And why is that? Tell our listeners. 

Jeremy Leal 

Man, I'll tell you. 

Matt Widdoes 

What were the barriers to entry here? 

Jeremy Leal 

The barrier to entry is $2 ,500 to get a license. I mean, I could find $2 ,500 in my couch cushion right now if I look hard enough, you know? 

Matt Widdoes 

You got to have me over for dinner sometime. Yeah. So yeah, basically, and there's like one highest per capita for sure by square mile or something. 

Jeremy Leal 

Well, so it's like, you know, if you have $2 ,500, you know, like, you don't have to have that strong a business plan. You know, like you think in like, I, 

Matt Widdoes 

Any business plan? 

Jeremy Leal 

Like, no, but it's like opening a bar, you know, it's like, man, I like to drink. I like to have my friends over to drink. Like, I like to watch sports. Start a bar. Let's, let's open a bar like that is not a business plan. You know, that's just a plan to get away from maybe your spouse, you know, and having something to do. 

Matt Widdoes 

Or, you look around and you see everybody else making money in the bars or in cannabis for a matter of your life. 

Jeremy Leal 

And just think that, you know, now you're not... Yeah, so...

Matt Widdoes 

 A legal weed -selling, yeah. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, and so, you know, there's a ton of, you know, competition in Oklahoma, you know, a ton of, you know, Oklahoma has been a medical market since 2018, so coming up on five years. And so, you know, talking about Uncle Terp, number one, it's water soluble, you know, traditional. 

Matt Widdoes 

These are gummies, right? These are like edible gummies. 

Jeremy Leal 

These are edible. They're water soluble, edible gummies. You know, cannabis is oil -based, you know, all cannabis is oil -based and our bodies are made of water. So, you know, without your liver to process, you know, oil and water don't mix. So, when you take a gummy, you know, or an edible, a baked good, a chocolate, whatever you want to call it, you know, has to get processed and that takes that 45 minutes and that lag time and that, you know, I kind of feel it, I kind of don't. Uncle Terp, you know, uses water soluble where we emulsify, you know, which is a fancy word for blending the oil and the water and now gets shuttled through your bloodstream. But outside of that, you know, there's a few other companies doing water soluble or claiming quick acting. So, now it comes down to branding, right? It comes down to what is the message? What is the voice? How does the packaging look? What is the shelf appeal? And that's kind of where, you know, Red Bull comes into play or working for a brand like Tito's. It's like, if it's all water soluble, you know, what is the difference? Well, it's the brand. It's the identity. It's the relevance. It's the authenticity, you know, and Uncle Terp, you know, while it may be kind of a masculine, you know, leaning brand, terpenes are the magic in cannabis, you know, terpenes is the buzzword in cannabis, you know, for a long time people thought it was the THC. It was, you know, Sativa, Indica, Hybrid. Well, the terpenes are though the ones that are the magic, you know, it creates the smell. It creates the effect, you know, creates the potency of the THC content or of that, you know, Sativa leaning, you know, strain. So Uncle Terp just was, you know, something that just, you know, was developed and became a character.

Matt Widdoes 

And what are some of the nuances of marketing cannabis broadly? There's kind of like in the past it was more heavily regulated. It was now it's kind of like everywhere I feel like and you've got new markets turning on all the time. What is that like? What have you ran into? Where is it? Are there any places where it's easier? Where is it harder? Like walk us through kind of the current restrictions and how you have to go about marketing a product like Uncle Terp. 

Jeremy Leal 

Well, I like I don't I don't feel like it doesn't fall into the traditional marketing guidelines, you know, cannabis isn't federally legal. And so, you know, you can't, you know, market on Instagram or, you know, Facebook or TikTok, you know, or even, you know, there's certain, you know, restrictions on counties where you can have a billboard that promotes cannabis. Like you couldn't have a billboard in Texas that promotes cannabis, right? And so there's a lot of kind of like underground or hacking that you have to do like different words or techniques like not showing consumption. It's, it's very inconsistent, you know, and it can be very frustrating because we had an Instagram for our Earth Wind and Flower back in 2020 and we were gaining a ton of traction and then Miley Cyrus' mom, you know, reposted our post and then her sister reposted our post, right? And they both had multiple millions of followers and then our account got taken down, right? And we had 2000 followers. Right. You know, and then there's big cannabis brands that have millions of followers and that can just post unlimited, whatever they want, whatever, something, anything. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah. So they can do no wrong. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah. And, you know, even if you are trying to be on the safe side and, and trying to, you know, be proactive against shadow banning, I don't think anyone is safe, you know, unless, unless you have a ton of money, you know, to pay off, you know, these, these platforms. 

Matt Widdoes 

And is that what you think is happening? Is because they're running ads or they're directly paying or they just have buddies? 

Jeremy Leal 

I think losing a big player, you know, like cookies, you know, I think losing cookies on Instagram or losing, you know, like High Times Magazine on Instagram. I think that hurts Instagram. I think that if the followers or any kind of publicity of like they took down the cookies, they got shut down. I don't think that's good for, you know, engagement on the platform. I think that, you know, like, I think that is harmful. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah. I mean, it'd be fairly isolated. I would care. I could care less if they remove cookies personally, but I'm also not following them. I'm curious, is it the kind of thing that you think there's some danger zone where you're big enough to get attention, but not big enough to be meaningful enough to the platform where it's like once you cross five million, all of a sudden you're untouchable or is it just they were there and they've been there for a long time and they were there early? Is it who knows and just complete random guesswork? 

Jeremy Leal 

I think it's who knows. I think anyone is still susceptible to being shadow banned. 

Matt Widdoes 

What advice would you give to somebody who's in cannabis? What should they know coming into it? Obviously, you're going to have a lot of restriction. You may get banned from running ads any number of places. Know your local law. What other thing? 

Jeremy Leal 

I would tell people not to do it. 

Matt Widdoes 

Just not to get into the business or not to try to market? 

Jeremy Leal 

Maybe. I mean, no, I mean, it's really hard. I mean, cannabis is challenging because you can't write off anything. you know, like normal experience, marketing, like travel, entertainment, all these other things that like, a normal business can sometimes can live off the write offs, you know, like even if they don't make money, you know, or break even like losing money on paper is better, you know, for you know, an entrepreneur in a lot of ways. But in cannabis, it's not because you can't write off those basic things, you know, hotel rooms and fuel charges and their entertainment marketing, but it only is cost of goods. So if you're going to be in cannabis, like you have to have a good business plan. It's a long game, you know, I think cannabis and alternative medicine is the future, you know, whether it's psilocybin or whatever, I think alternative medicine is the future. And now we're in that prohibition stage of alcohol, like from the 30s, you know, and like if you can figure out how to be at least sustainable through, you know, the inconsistencies, the regulations, you know, like whatever, then it's going to be beautiful. But it's really hard as a pioneer to, you know, stay positive. 

Matt Widdoes 

What do you think the future is like, when do you think we'd see, you know, kind of ocean to ocean open ever? Do you like will Texas ever roll on things like this? 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, I think it'll go, I think it'll, you know, go, you know, there's five states today, you know, in the US, they get to vote on full recreational, you know, like today's a big day in cannabis, you know, today's a big day for, you know, a lot of policies. But you know, I think that would put it up to almost 20 recreational states in the US, you know, 

Matt Widdoes 

Not far from flipping to the majority. 

Jeremy Leal 

And then and then 40 plus, you know, medicinal, at least, right, you know, so now you got 80% of the US that's already, you know, proactively doing cannabis. So I think in the next four years, it'll be fully recreational. I mean, you see Mexico doing it, Canada has done it, Germany, you know, just announced their plan Spain. I mean, it's just a matter of time. I think it's, I think it was, you know, mismanagement. of information and it was meant to, you know, for the big pharma, alcohol, tobacco to say, you know, like, stoners are lazy, you know, or you smoke weed and you become- 

Matt Widdoes 

Jump out a window. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, yeah. You know, or you, you know, I think it was, it was more of like propaganda than it was, you know, really like weed is bad for you. Right. 

Matt Widdoes 

And so maybe, you know, a lot of the people listening may be early stage founders. They may have, you know, probably most will not be in cannabis. So if you think about somebody who's maybe just more in general tech, maybe they've just raised fresh batch of new money, 10 million, they think experiential might be good for them. And they came to you and said, hey, what, what bit of advice would you have for me when thinking about experiential or event broadly? Any advice should give them? 

Jeremy Leal 

I think that you need to understand your audience, you know, and what is it that you're trying to accomplish? You know, like if you're, like I was talking about last night with the tattoos, it's not a bad idea. You know, it's just like, does everyone want a Texas tattoo? You know, like a state outline of Texas, you know, and maybe they're from, you know, North Carolina. Is that, you know, maybe they're just happening to be here on a stayover and they went to the party. Do they want the state outline? I think it has to- 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah, it's like, why such a Texas theme? Blue bonnets, Texas cactus, barbecue. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, like, can it be, you know, like, it has to be authentic, you know, and it has to be something people care about, you know? There's too many, you know, it's too easy to get a free t -shirt, you know? But is a t -shirt someone's gonna wear or are they gonna use it as a car rag, you know? It's just like- 

Matt Widdoes 

Or straight to the goodwill bin, you know what I mean? 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah, and so, I mean, sometimes it's, you know, it's a toss up, you know? And what you think is cool or, you know, like people will care about, they don't. And so, I think it's, you know, like, you gotta figure out who is your audience, what is your budget, you know? And how do you define success? And experiential is pretty broad in terms of, like, return on investment, you know? Like, but if you can do it well, you know, like Red Bull, like, even to, you know, even now, like their marketing program and sampling cans is the most effective marketing and it's the most expensive, you know? But it's still the most effective, because it's that one -on -one, like, okay, like that, that tattoo now, last night, although I didn't get the cactus, you know, or any of them, you know, like the person that got it, they walked away thinking about Red Bull, you know? Like for the rest of their life, they're like, hey, what's the meaning of that cactus? Well, I was at this party on a Monday night and- 

Matt Widdoes 

No, hold on, these were permanent tattoos? 

Jeremy Leal 

Yes! 

Matt Widdoes 

Oh my God, I thought they were temporary. 

Jeremy Leal 

No. 

Matt Widdoes 

Oh my God, people are getting permanent tattoos and cactus? 

Jeremy Leal 

Permanent. 

Matt Widdoes 

Was it one cactus design or no? 

Jeremy Leal 

No, there was like-

Matt Widdoes 

Oh, how funny. Okay, I didn't put that together. I assumed they were just like temporary tattoos. 

Jeremy Leal 

No, these were like- like full on permanent tattoo. So it's like, you know, and, you know, I saw one guy, that was his first tattoo. Right. His first tattoo ever. 

Matt Widdoes 

He had been tattoo curious up until that point for sure. 

Jeremy Leal 

I'm sure, you know, when he got on his forearm, so when he went to, you know, his job this morning at the water cooler, they're like, hey, nice ink. He's like, I got that at the Red Bull party, right? So like, to him, it's always gonna have a story. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah, 100%. 

Jeremy Leal 

But, you know, I think if the tattoo designs were more like versatile, they would have been more people getting them, right? You know, so it's like... 

Matt Widdoes 

Well, yeah. And well, you also don't want them so complex that you can only do one. 

Jeremy Leal 

No, like the turnover in the chair has to be, you know... 

Matt Widdoes 

Quick, yeah. We're doing check boxes. The, uh, well, that's pretty funny. Now that I learned that, and you know, I could totally see a world where you've got the guy sitting there and it's like, nobody wants a tattoo. It's like, nope. Nope. You're just like, no, not even tattoo people want to tattoo from this guy. Cause maybe the book isn't good. Or maybe they're just like, I don't, I wouldn't think that that's how a tattoo would work. How many, how many people would you guess got a tattoo last night? And, and how many people were in attendance? 

Jeremy Leal 

I would say, I would say in attendance, maybe a thousand people. 

Matt Widdoes 

Oh, pretty big. Oh, that's really big. 

Jeremy Leal 

I would say, you know, 

Matt Widdoes 

Like a small concert. 

Jeremy Leal 

I would say 30 people. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah. Okay. Enough way more than I would think. 

Jeremy Leal 

Yeah. Uh, for that book. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah. Well, that's so funny. Yeah. Very different world. 

Jeremy Leal 

Well, that's, and that's why, you know, like, like I was saying, like if, if I was to do that pop up for Uncle Terp, you know, for example, at a festival or at, you know, I would make it more of a lifestyle, you know, like something like a, you know, like stay groovy, live your best life. You know, like you only live once, like something where people could actually attach themselves to that, like motto versus like Texas outline, you know. So, but that's just me. And that's just me being critical because I've, I've done those. I've done the event before with the tattoo parlor and with the barber shop in things and I've seen it. You know, I just wouldn't have picked that flash art last night. 

Matt Widdoes 

Okay. That makes sense. So sounds like know your audience, make merch that's worth having, have events worth going to, find ways to create memorable moments. It's hard, you know, and a lot of people don't care. You got to. Well, and the budgets are constrained. I mean, to give even a thousand people alcohol at a friendly bar is not cheap. It's, you know, you're probably still, even at cost, you're looking at 5 ,000 bucks, something like that, probably more than that, probably 10 ,000. 

Jeremy Leal 

And their budget was like 70K for everything, right? For the DJ, the tattoo artist, the drinks, like, I mean, you know, so you're, you're within constraints, but it's still is like, do things that matter, you know, or do things that you believe will matter. Even if it's small, it still can matter. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah, and I think that that's one lesson too, is it doesn't have to be big, right? You can have some really big impacts. I think the other piece is measurement and understanding how you're gonna measure that after the fact. That's one thing certainly I took from Red Bull and Zynga and King is, you know, one, make good merch. Like don't cheap out on the merch, just don't make it, right? But make it like get the good soft, you know, three tri -blend shirt stuff, don't get the $12 Haynes, whatever. And then, you know, we just recently had our offsite, all hands offsite, and it's like we go all out for those, right? So that whenever you do go to a company offsite, you know, how many like official company Red Bull events did you ever go to that were duds? It's like zero, right? They're always good. If it's like ran by corporate and it's big, you know, sure if it's at some bar or whatever, but if it's for, you know, athletes or it's for part of a major event like, you know. 

Jeremy Leal 

I think that's your point. I think it's also putting your name on something that you can stand by. You know, and I think that's what Red Bull does well is like, they don't have their logo in the graveyard, you know, sponsors, they actually are like, no, we don't need our logo there, we just need people drinking our can, you know, right. And find ways to integrate yourself and not, you know, like if it's a magazine, you know, like, can you get an advertorial versus just a paid sponsor where people are like, man, this looks like this magazine actually really, you know, care about Uncle Terp and the fast acting this versus being paid a quarter, you know, quarter page ad saying it's fast acting. It was actually the editor of the magazine saying it was fast acting, you know, so I think finding creative ways to use the same amount of money or less to create more impact, you know, that's experiential all the way around. 

Matt Widdoes 

Well, well, Jeremy, thanks again for the time today. Lots of good stuff. Always fun chatting. I look forward to next time. 

Jeremy Leal 

Hey, thank you, Matt, for having me. Hope there is a next time. 

Matt Widdoes 

Yeah, let's do it. All right. That was our talk with Jeremy Leal all about experiential marketing. If you enjoyed this conversation, why not subscribe so you catch every episode of growth at scale. See you next time.